Muslims Satisfied

[Dana]

Dear All
Many Muslims especially of influence in society think that the idea of
unity of humankind is an unrealistic goal and therefore, should be
abandoned. According to them, this may be a romantic or an exotic idea
but it is an unattainable goal. They think that Muslims waste their
time in talking about the unity of humankind when they themselves are
badly divided.They catalog a long list of such divisions from Muslim
history. Wars fought and continue to be fought amongst themselves and
millions of Muslims killed by Muslims are given as proofs from past
and present history to support their claim that Muslim unity is not
possible,let alone the unity of humankind. How can then one talk about
Muslim unity when their past history has been so divisive, they are
quick to remind everyone. These are mostly the feelings of the secular
liberal or progressive minded Muslims.

I would say it is the view of the more literate Muslims.
As it is look at the Moslem culture where females are not treated equally as
men. Females can be stoned to death for cheating on a husband, yet the male
she was cheating with is not found guilty of any crime.
Look at how the Moslems strap bombs onto their babies, and then blow up
these babies in crowded area, killing these young children as well as
innocent bystanders.
Islamic religious teachings show that Muhammad your great prophet married a
6 year old girl, and had sex with her when she was 9.
So if you are satisfied with this being a decent and humane religion, I
would think you should seek mental help.

[plain spoken folk]

Post by Dana
I would say it is the view of the more literate Muslims.
As it is look at the Moslem culture where females are not treated equally as
men. Females can be stoned to death for cheating on a husband, yet the male
she was cheating with is not found guilty of any crime.

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

IN THE UNITED STATES


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MURDER . Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic
violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends.
That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of
women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the
number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.
BATTERING . Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are
officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative
estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are
battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious
enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's
attention.


SEXUAL ASSAULT . Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they
have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew
their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are
raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped
by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

THE TARGETS . Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an
intimate. Young women, women who are separated, divorced or single, low-
income women and African-American women are disproportionately victims of
assault and rape. Domestic violence rates are five times higher among
families below poverty levels, and severe spouse abuse is twice as likely to
be committed by unemployed men as by those working full time. Violent
attacks on lesbians and gay men have become two to three times more common
than they were prior to 1988.

Post by Dana
Look at how the Moslems strap bombs onto their babies, and then blow up
these babies in crowded area, killing these young children as well as
innocent bystanders.

We have not set up a database for these numbers, rather we direct you Iraq
Body Count.


"War may have killed 10,000 civilians, researchers say":

At least 5,000 civilians may have been killed during the invasion of Iraq,
an independent research group has claimed. As more evidence is collated, it
says, the figure could reach 10,000.

Iraq Body Count (IBC), a volunteer group of British and US academics and
researchers, compiled statistics on civilian casualties from media reports
and estimated that over 10,000 civilians died in the conflict. More

Post by Dana
Islamic religious teachings show that Muhammad your great prophet married a
6 year old girl, and had sex with her when she was 9.
So if you are satisfied with this being a decent and humane religion, I
would think you should seek mental help.

2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.
I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them
to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have
done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all
Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan
answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not
die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child
born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in
your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle:
the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city
shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from
the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

(Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or
two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or
two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

Judges 21:10-24 NLT)



So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to
kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to
do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not
a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred
young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the
camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.



The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of
Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin
returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who
were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women
for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had
left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How
can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe
of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an
entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them
our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that
anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh,
between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from
Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives,
"Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their
dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them
home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in
protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your
daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed
Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not
give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as
they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration
and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they
rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed
by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.



Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed
and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside
the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything
but evil?



2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)



They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they
killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings - Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur,
and Reba - died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the
sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children
and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They
burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After
they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they
brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community
of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River,
across from Jericho.



Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to
meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military
commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the
women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's
advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount
Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.
Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the
young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.



Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

[Dana]

Post by plain spoken folk

Post by Dana
I would say it is the view of the more literate Muslims.
As it is look at the Moslem culture where females are not treated

equally

Post by plain spoken folk

Post by Dana
as
men. Females can be stoned to death for cheating on a husband, yet the male
she was cheating with is not found guilty of any crime.

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

Yes the moslem male thinks that it is ok to beat females.
http://www.wpibriefing.com/120%20Azar%20Majed%20letter%20to%20Nobel%20Peace%20Committee.htm

An Open Letter to the Noble Peace Prize Committee
regarding Awarding the Noble Peace Prize to Shirin Ebadi
Noble Peace Prize to a women's right activist or a religious figure?
By: Azar Majedi
Dear Committee members
As a veteran activist for women's equality, as one who has been the subject
of the Islamic Republic of Iran's persecution and political Islam's
brutality and has devoted her life to combat it, I would like to express my
indignation at your statement regarding the awarding of the Noble peace
prize to Ms. Shirin Ebadi.
It is said that she has been awarded the prize "for her efforts for
democracy and human rights' especially for "the struggle for the rights of
women and children." But further down in the statement the more specific
reason for which she has been awarded the peace prize is given: "Ebadi is a
conscious Moslem. She sees no conflict between Islam and fundamental human
rights." It is further emphasized that the committee is awarding her the
prize as "a woman who is part of the Moslem world."
The assumptions by the Noble prize committee are objectionable by anyone who
has lived through the horrors of the Islamic Republic of Iran, or has felt
or seen the terror of political Islam in the past decades. This statement is
a blow to a people whose aspirations are to bring about a secular state, and
to free themselves from religion rule. One need not to be a seasoned
politician to understand the implications and implied meanings of this
sentence. For ordinary people in Iran who have witnessed the support given
by the West to the Islamic Republic in one form or the other over the years,
and have also witnessed their support for Islamic states and movements, the
clear message of this statement reads that the Noble peace prize is being
awarded to a Moslem movement in the hopes of reforming the Islamic Republic.
For a committee whose main task is to follow, understand and discern the
movements for improving people's lives, for improving human rights, women's
rights, the rights of children, and any disadvantaged section of society, I
am amazed that you have not followed the events in Iran, have not heard the
message and slogans of the protest movements of the people, workers and
women in Iran. The most recent one took place in June and continued for over
three weeks. Every night, thousands took to the streets and shouted: "long
live freedom and equality" and "down with Islamic Republic." As it regards
women, they threw off their compulsory veils - some even burnt their Islamic
veils - as signs of protest to Islamic laws, and broke the walls and laws of
gender apartheid by holding hands with their male comrades and dancing in
public. As a matter of fact as I am writing these lines, I received the news
of wave of demonstrations in the streets of Tehran, in which thousands of
people, especially women are shouting "down with the Islamic Republic" and
demanding freedom. Perhaps you could understand my indignation at your
statement when you explain that you are awarding the prize to a "conscious
Moslem" who "sees no conflict between Islam and fundamental human rights."
In explaining the reasons for awarding a prize to a woman for her activities
in the arena of women's rights in a country where women are considered by
law, that is religious law, as second-class citizens, where the secular and
women's equal rights movement are tremendously strong, why do you find the
need or choose to describe her as a Moslem?
There is a clear political justification for portraying a women's rights
activist from Iran, and under the tyranny of a religious state, first and
foremost, by religion, and by describing the geography of her activities,
again, by religion. This statement does not award the women's and protest
movements in Iran fighting for a free and better world, a secular state, and
the complete equality of women and men, but instead awards a section of a
movement which is trying to maintain the rule of Islam. This statement,
contrary to the demands and judgements of the people in Iran is awarding
that movement which is more eager to stop the people than to stop the
Islamic state, and religious tyranny in Iran. I believe one is justified to
draw the conclusion that the noble prize committee is biased and has made a
political decision to support not the secular movement in Iran, and the
so-called "Moslem world" but the Islamic movement. Let me assure you that
such a decision is contrary to the will and wishes of the majority of people
and women of Iran who will free themselves and Iran of a religious state all
together, and will bring about a secular, free and equal political system.
Sincerely yours,

Azar Majedi

[Dana]

Post by Dana
Yes the moslem male thinks that it is ok to beat females.

http://middleeastinfo.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=3511#pid38841
PROOF THAT MUHAMMAD WAS A PEDOPHILE

Section 1: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had
sex with her

Islamists like to claim that Aisha had reached puberty by the time Muhammad
married and had sex with her. However, they never provide verifiable proof
that Aisha actually was pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with
her, but commonly claim traditions or cultural practices as proof. This is,
of course, false as demonstrated by the hadiths and the commentary of one of
Islam's most famous hadith scholars, Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani,
Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, and author of the
celebrated commentary on Sahih Bukhari, Fateh al-Bari.

To prove Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with her,
one has to understand Ibn Hajar's explanation of the permissibility of
doll-playing for pre-pubescent girls. Then applying this doll-playing
exegesis to hadiths of Aisha getting married or when she first had sex with
Muhammad, one can then demonstrate that she was pre-pubescent on these
occasions.



Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent

This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn
Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, said
regarding doll-playing and little girls:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle
used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them
to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is
forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little
girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: "The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty"?

Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other
translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.

Alternative translation 1:
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm

On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the
presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played
along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he
entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play
with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)

[The translator then provides some discussion about translations of various
versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and
Fath-al-Bari]

Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130,
Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used
as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys
for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been
especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images
(suwar).


Alternative translation 2:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49844&dgn=4

But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates
that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that 'Aa'ishah
(may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "I used to play with dolls in the
presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I
had female friends who would play with me." al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440.

Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images
of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception
from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was
stated by 'Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale
of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of
their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for
young girls to play with toys.


Alternative translation 3:
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm

Aaishah said, "I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet
(pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's
Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to
play with me."

In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree,
Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: "This hadeeth is used as
evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and
animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has
been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making
images. 'Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was
the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they
permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their
youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children."

Note the great similarity in the commentaries of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari
all four versions of the hadith. The words are different because of the
different translators but the essential message is unchanged - only little
girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.


How do we know that little girls are pre-pubescent? Because Islamic customs
and laws specifically state so.

For example:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_21.html

Girls reach puberty and adulthood when they experience the above three
signs. However, they have a fourth sign, that is, menstruation (hayd).
Whenever a girl experiences it, she is a woman even if she is 12 years old.

http://www.alinaam.org.za/social/myaaisha.htm
http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=151

Islam And the Age of Puberty
Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained
puberty.

These Islamic websites provide the evidence that in Islam, when a girl
reaches puberty, she ceases to be a girl and becomes a woman. Therefore,
little girls must be pre-pubescent according to Islamic customs and laws.


We also have commentaries by hadith scholars that reinforce this point.

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm

Al-Qaadee 'Iyaad has stated this position with definiteness, and transmitted
it as the position of the Majority (Jumhoor) of the Scholars; and that they
declared permissible the selling of toys/dolls (al-lu'ab) for little girls,
to train them from childhood for the household responsibilities and
child-rearing.

Al-Khattaabee said: . it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat)
is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the
threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission
in this was given to Aisha (RA) is because she had not, at that time,
reached the age of puberty.


http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm

. Abu 'Ubaid, who said: We don't see there being any reason for that
(permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys
are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were owned by
adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh).



Part 2: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with
her on her wedding day


Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing
between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face
with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped
so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a
bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women
got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house
when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on
behalf of me."

This hadith suggests that Muhammad had sex with Aisha in her house on her
wedding day. However, was this event really on her wedding day? This is
proven by the Sahih Bukhari hadith below. Note the similarity in accounts,
although the Bukhari 5:234 hadith is more expansive on the fact that the
events took place on Aisha's wedding day.

Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We
went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I
got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother,
Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl
friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do
to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.
I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some
water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house.
There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and
Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they
prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in
the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a
girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the
Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"


Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3311
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years
old, and (s)he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her
dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old.

Note that Sahih Muslim says that Aisha still had her dolls with her when she
was taken to Muhammad's house as a bride. Applying Ibn Hajar's doll-playing
exegesis from Part 1, it becomes clear that Aisha was pre-pubescent when she
became a bride.


Therefore, it is abundantly clear from the hadiths that Aisha was
pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with her on her wedding day.



Part 3: Proof from Sunan Abu Dawud

This proof is slightly controversial because not every Muslim accepts the
hadiths of Sunan Abu Dawud to be sahih (authentic). However, Sunan Abu Dawud
is still the third most respected collection of hadiths, and the relevant
Abu Dawud hadith used here is considered sahih (authentic) by some of the
most authoritative hadith scholars, including Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari'
(Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at
the Islamic University of Madeenah).


From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116: "Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me
when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years.").
"He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

Here we see that Muhammad has sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old. Is
this age confirmed by other hadiths? Yes.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed
there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of
six years of age, and he consumed (sic - consummated) that marriage when she
was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated
his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for
nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated
his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed
that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)."
what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six
years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old
and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4915 and Number 4915
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six.
When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm
Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and
decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine.
She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Islamists will insist that the term 'consummate the marriage' means 'nikah',
not sex. This is despite the Abu Dawud hadith Vol. 2, #2116 translation that
explicits states 'intercourse'. Be that as it may, does 'consummate the
marriage' mean sex? Here is proof that it does.

http://www.exmuslim.com/com/evidence.htm

There has been some confusion about the definition of the word "consummate".
In Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, #64, the root word used is "dakhala". From the
Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273, it means "to enter, to pierce, to
penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman".


But how do we know that at the age of nine Aisha was still pre-pubescent?
Here is the evidence from Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914 (This hadith is
also repeated in Sunan Nasa'i):

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm

Possession of Dolls By Little Girls
On the authority of Aisha (RA), that she said:
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar
(the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook
or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small
room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and
uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My
dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of
cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the
dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings.
He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't
you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then
he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee
as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee
is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani
(ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]

Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-'Adheem Aabaadee, in his Sharh
(explanation) of Sunan Abu Daawood, says: This hadith and the one before it
(Hadith #20) is used as an evidence of permissibility of possession of dolls
and toys for the purpose of little girls playing with them. This
(permission) is a special exception from the general prohibition of
possession of images (suwar). This position has been stated with certainty
by al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and he has quoted it as the opinion of the Jumhoor
(Majority of Scholars). He also said that the Jumhoor has allowed the sale
of toys (dolls) for little girls, in order to train and prepare them from
childhood for their household affairs and the raising of their children.

According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight
years before Hijrah. The battle of Khaibar took place in Muharram-Safar 7
AH. The siege of Tabuk took place in Rajab 9 AH. Therefore, to be generous,
I accept the Khaibar explanation and not the later, Tabuk explanation.

It is generally accepted that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of
6 in the year 3 BH. This is confirmed by reports that the marriage was
consummated in Shawwal, which came seven months after the Prophet's hijra
from Makkah to al-Medinah.

So the Abu Dawood hadith says that Aisha was still playing with dolls at
least as late as 7 AH. That is 6-7 years after her marriage. Using the
doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar, Abu Ubaid, al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and Shaykh
Muhammad Shams al-Haqq, Aisha did not reach puberty until at least 6-7 years
after her marriage when she would have been about 15-16 years old, but lets
say 14 years old to be generous.


Note that some Islamists will try to say that this hadith is not sahih. They
will use this translation of the same hadith and point out the phrase (the
narrator is doubtful):

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the
narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung
in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse
with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She
replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two
wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard
that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah
(peace be upon him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.
[Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914]


The evidence that this hadith is sahih, and that the phrase (the narrator is
doubtful) does not mean that the hadith is doubtful but that the narrator
was doubtful about being told it was Khaybar or Tabuk, are as follows:

1. Various versions of the hadith include confirmation that it is
sahih/authenticated/authentic, including one that refers to Sahih Abu Dawud
(a collection of Abu Dawud hadiths that are deemed sahih):

A. http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm

On the authority of Aisha (RA), that she said:
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar
(the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook
or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small
room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and
uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My
dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of
cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the
dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings.
He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't
you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then
he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee
as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee
is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani
(ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]


B. http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm

Aboo Daawood and an-Nasaa'ee collected this hadeeth in another chain from
Aaishah in which she said, "When Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) arrived after the
expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar, the wind raised an end of a curtain which
hung in front of my closet, revealing some dolls which belonged to me. He
asked me, 'What is this?' I replied: My dolls. He saw among them a horse
made of wrapped cloth with wings, and asked, 'What is this I am seeing among
them?' I replied: A horse. He asked, 'A horse with wings?' I replied: Have
you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? Allaah's Messenger (pbuh)
laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth."5 This hadeeth is very
clear that the meaning of playthings (lu'ab) mentioned in the earlier
narration does not refer to humans.

5 Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh
Sunan Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123.


C. http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html

On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet
(sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was
Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the
curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi
wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to
play. He said: "What is this O Aa'ishah?" She replied 'my daughters (Arabs
used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings
made out of a piece of cloth. He said: "What is this?" She replied: 'A
horse' He said: "and what are those on the horses?" She replied: 'Two wings'
He said: "A horse with two wings?!" Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed
until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in
Al-Ishrah]

Not only is the chain of narrators authentic according to Albani - but two
other Islamic sources say 'authentic or authenticated.'


2. The version from the themuslimwoman.com site says that, "the narrator of
the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook or Khaibar". That
is, not in doubt about the hadith.


3. alternative translations do not carry the word 'doubt'

http://www.islamicdawah.mobilixnet.dk/islam/Women/obligation_of_man.htm

Also on the authority of Aisha who said: "The Prophet (saw) returned from
the battle of Tabuk, or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over her room.
The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing part of the room in which
the Prophet (saw) saw some dolls with which Aisha used to play. He said,
"What is this, O Aisha?" She said: "My daughters." (Arabs used to call dolls
for "daughters") He saw among them a horse with two wings made of pieces of
cloth. He said "And what is this in the middle?" She said, "A horse." He
said, "and what are those on the horse?" She said: "Two wings." He said, "A
horse with two wings?!" Aisha said: "The Prophet (saw) laughed until I could
see his molar teeth" (Abu Daawood, an-Nasaa'ee).


http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html

On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet
(sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was
Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the
curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi
wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to
play. He said: "What is this O Aa'ishah?" She replied 'my daughters (Arabs
used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings
made out of a piece of cloth. He said: "What is this?" She replied: 'A
horse' He said: "and what are those on the horses?" She replied: 'Two wings'
He said: "A horse with two wings?!" Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed
until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in
Al-Ishrah]



4. Authoritative Islamic scholars still use this hadith in their judgment of
Islamic laws and customs

http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05a.htm

Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer
and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah) had this to
say about image-making in al-Usrah:

"Regarding the hadeeth of Aaishah that she played with dolls in the presence
of the Prophet (pbuh), and, in some versions of the hadeeth, that one of the
dolls was in the shape of a winged horse, and that when the Prophet (pbuh)
asked her about it, she replied, 'Didn't you hear that [Prophet] Sulayman
had a horse with wings?' to which the Prophet (pbuh) responded by laughing;
this hadeeth indicates the permissibility of children's figurative toys,
owning them and using them, whether they are clearly representative or not,
and whether skillfully or crudely fashioned. There is no basis in the
hadeeth for making a distinction. Those who say that Aaishah's dolls were
not distinctly representative have made an arbitrary judgement not based on
any evidence. What do they say about a winged horse?"

How can Islamists claim that the Imam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of
tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah uses a
hadith that is not sahih to pronounce on the permissibility of doll-playing
among Saudi Arabian children? For by doing so, even Shaykh Abdul Azeez
al-Qaari' of Saudi Arabia seems to accept that this hadith is sahih.

If using a weak hadith a scholar has to warn the reader about its weakness.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=105213

"Generally, in Islamic law, only the authentic (sahih) and good (hasan)
hadiths are used in deriving the rules. The weak (da`if) hadiths have no
value for the purpose of Shari`ah. However, the scholars of hadith sometimes
differ among themselves in the determination of whether some Hadiths are
weak or not. The scholars have sometimes used weak hadiths for moral and
spiritual (fada'il) matters. It is important that when one uses a weak
hadith for any reason, one should explain it to the people that this is weak
hadith and that it is being used for this particular reason."

It is clear from the article that Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of
Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic
University of Madeenah) didn't say anything about Abu Dawud 4914 being
weak - thus it cannot be weak.

Also look at what the reference says at the end of the article:
Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan
Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123


CONCLUSION

In Part 1, I prove that in Islam, doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent
according to the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar and Islamic laws and
customs.

In Part 2, I prove that using Ibn Hajar's doll-playing exegesis, Aisha can
be proven to be still pre-pubescent when she married and had sex with
Muhammad.

In Part 3, I prove that Aisha was still pre-pubescent as late as 6-7 years
after her marriage to Muhammad.


Section 2: Proof that Muhammad was a pedophile according to DSM-IV-TR

Even according to the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia,
DSM-IV-TR, Muhammad would be defined as a pedophile. Note that there are
other generally accepted definitions of pedophilia that do not confine the
definition to pre-pubertal children or require fantasies, sexual urges or
behaviors over a certain period of time. However, for the sake of this
discussion I will confine my argument to DSM-IV-TR.


Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing
fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a
prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or
fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the
child or children in Criterion A.

Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an
ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.



Does Muhammad meet all these criteria?

1. Yes - Muhammad had sexual relations with a pre-pubescent girl for a
prolonged period - likely to be at least 6-7 years.

2. Yes - Muhammad had acted on his sexual urges - as demonstrated by Tabari
IX:131 and various Bukhari hadiths (stating consummation at age nine when it
has been established that Aisha didn't reach puberty until she was at least
14 years old).

3. Yes - Muhammad was 57 years old when Aisha was only 9 years old when they
first had sex.


Therefore, even according to the strict clinical definition of DSM-IV-TR it
can be proven that Muhammad was a pedophile.

[plain spoken folk]

so I guess we can agree that both sets of imaginary friends and their
followers are sick mother fuckers (literally) and deserve each other and
their dance of death. very illuminating! thanks.

Post by Dana

Post by Dana
Yes the moslem male thinks that it is ok to beat females.

http://middleeastinfo.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=3511#pid38841
PROOF THAT MUHAMMAD WAS A PEDOPHILE
Section 1: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had
sex with her
Islamists like to claim that Aisha had reached puberty by the time Muhammad
married and had sex with her. However, they never provide verifiable proof
that Aisha actually was pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with
her, but commonly claim traditions or cultural practices as proof. This is,
of course, false as demonstrated by the hadiths and the commentary of one of
Islam's most famous hadith scholars, Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani,
Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, and author of the
celebrated commentary on Sahih Bukhari, Fateh al-Bari.
To prove Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with her,
one has to understand Ibn Hajar's explanation of the permissibility of
doll-playing for pre-pubescent girls. Then applying this doll-playing
exegesis to hadiths of Aisha getting married or when she first had sex with
Muhammad, one can then demonstrate that she was pre-pubescent on these
occasions.
Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent
This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn
Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, said
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle
used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them
to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is
forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little
girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: "The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty"?
Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other
translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm
On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the
presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played
along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he
entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play
with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)
[The translator then provides some discussion about translations of various
versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and
Fath-al-Bari]
Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130,
Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used
as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys
for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been
especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images
(suwar).
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49844&dgn=4
But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates
that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that 'Aa'ishah
(may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "I used to play with dolls in the
presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I
had female friends who would play with me." al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440.
Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images
of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception
from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was
stated by 'Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale
of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of
their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for
young girls to play with toys.
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm
Aaishah said, "I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet
(pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's
Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to
play with me."
In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree,
Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: "This hadeeth is used as
evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and
animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has
been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making
images. 'Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was
the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they
permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their
youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children."
Note the great similarity in the commentaries of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari
all four versions of the hadith. The words are different because of the
different translators but the essential message is unchanged - only little
girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.
How do we know that little girls are pre-pubescent? Because Islamic customs
and laws specifically state so.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_21.html
Girls reach puberty and adulthood when they experience the above three
signs. However, they have a fourth sign, that is, menstruation (hayd).
Whenever a girl experiences it, she is a woman even if she is 12 years old.
http://www.alinaam.org.za/social/myaaisha.htm
http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=151
Islam And the Age of Puberty
Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained
puberty.
These Islamic websites provide the evidence that in Islam, when a girl
reaches puberty, she ceases to be a girl and becomes a woman. Therefore,
little girls must be pre-pubescent according to Islamic customs and laws.
We also have commentaries by hadith scholars that reinforce this point.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm
Al-Qaadee 'Iyaad has stated this position with definiteness, and transmitted
it as the position of the Majority (Jumhoor) of the Scholars; and that they
declared permissible the selling of toys/dolls (al-lu'ab) for little girls,
to train them from childhood for the household responsibilities and
child-rearing.
Al-Khattaabee said: . it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat)
is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the
threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission
in this was given to Aisha (RA) is because she had not, at that time,
reached the age of puberty.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
. Abu 'Ubaid, who said: We don't see there being any reason for that
(permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys
are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were owned by
adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh).
Part 2: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with
her on her wedding day
Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing
between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face
with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped
so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a
bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women
got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house
when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on
behalf of me."
This hadith suggests that Muhammad had sex with Aisha in her house on her
wedding day. However, was this event really on her wedding day? This is
proven by the Sahih Bukhari hadith below. Note the similarity in accounts,
although the Bukhari 5:234 hadith is more expansive on the fact that the
events took place on Aisha's wedding day.
Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We
went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I
got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother,
Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl
friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do
to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.
I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some
water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house.
There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and
Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they
prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in
the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a
girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the
Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"
Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3311
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years
old, and (s)he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her
dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old.
Note that Sahih Muslim says that Aisha still had her dolls with her when she
was taken to Muhammad's house as a bride. Applying Ibn Hajar's
doll-playing
exegesis from Part 1, it becomes clear that Aisha was pre-pubescent when she
became a bride.
Therefore, it is abundantly clear from the hadiths that Aisha was
pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with her on her wedding day.
Part 3: Proof from Sunan Abu Dawud
This proof is slightly controversial because not every Muslim accepts the
hadiths of Sunan Abu Dawud to be sahih (authentic). However, Sunan Abu Dawud
is still the third most respected collection of hadiths, and the relevant
Abu Dawud hadith used here is considered sahih (authentic) by some of the
most authoritative hadith scholars, including Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari'
(Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at
the Islamic University of Madeenah).
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116: "Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me
when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years.").
"He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."
Here we see that Muhammad has sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old. Is
this age confirmed by other hadiths? Yes.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236.
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed
there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of
six years of age, and he consumed (sic - consummated) that marriage when she
was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated
his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for
nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated
his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed
that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)."
what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six
years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old
and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4915 and Number 4915
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six.
When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm
Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and
decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine.
She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Islamists will insist that the term 'consummate the marriage' means 'nikah',
not sex. This is despite the Abu Dawud hadith Vol. 2, #2116 translation that
explicits states 'intercourse'. Be that as it may, does 'consummate the
marriage' mean sex? Here is proof that it does.
http://www.exmuslim.com/com/evidence.htm
There has been some confusion about the definition of the word
"consummate".
In Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, #64, the root word used is "dakhala". From the
Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273, it means "to enter, to pierce, to
penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman".
But how do we know that at the age of nine Aisha was still pre-pubescent?
Here is the evidence from Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914 (This hadith is
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
Possession of Dolls By Little Girls
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar
(the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook
or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small
room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and
uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My
dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of
cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the
dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings.
He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't
you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then
he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee
as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee
is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani
(ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]
Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-'Adheem Aabaadee, in his Sharh
(explanation) of Sunan Abu Daawood, says: This hadith and the one before it
(Hadith #20) is used as an evidence of permissibility of possession of dolls
and toys for the purpose of little girls playing with them. This
(permission) is a special exception from the general prohibition of
possession of images (suwar). This position has been stated with certainty
by al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and he has quoted it as the opinion of the Jumhoor
(Majority of Scholars). He also said that the Jumhoor has allowed the sale
of toys (dolls) for little girls, in order to train and prepare them from
childhood for their household affairs and the raising of their children.
According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight
years before Hijrah. The battle of Khaibar took place in Muharram-Safar 7
AH. The siege of Tabuk took place in Rajab 9 AH. Therefore, to be generous,
I accept the Khaibar explanation and not the later, Tabuk explanation.
It is generally accepted that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of
6 in the year 3 BH. This is confirmed by reports that the marriage was
consummated in Shawwal, which came seven months after the Prophet's hijra
from Makkah to al-Medinah.
So the Abu Dawood hadith says that Aisha was still playing with dolls at
least as late as 7 AH. That is 6-7 years after her marriage. Using the
doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar, Abu Ubaid, al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and Shaykh
Muhammad Shams al-Haqq, Aisha did not reach puberty until at least 6-7 years
after her marriage when she would have been about 15-16 years old, but lets
say 14 years old to be generous.
Note that some Islamists will try to say that this hadith is not sahih. They
will use this translation of the same hadith and point out the phrase (the
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the
narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung
in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.
He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse
with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She
replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two
wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard
that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah
(peace be upon him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.
[Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914]
The evidence that this hadith is sahih, and that the phrase (the narrator is
doubtful) does not mean that the hadith is doubtful but that the narrator
1. Various versions of the hadith include confirmation that it is
sahih/authenticated/authentic, including one that refers to Sahih Abu Dawud
A. http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar
(the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook
or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small
room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and
uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My
dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of
cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the
dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings.
He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't
you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then
he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee
as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee
is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani
(ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]
B. http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm
Aboo Daawood and an-Nasaa'ee collected this hadeeth in another chain from
Aaishah in which she said, "When Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) arrived after the
expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar, the wind raised an end of a curtain which
hung in front of my closet, revealing some dolls which belonged to me. He
asked me, 'What is this?' I replied: My dolls. He saw among them a horse
made of wrapped cloth with wings, and asked, 'What is this I am seeing among
them?' I replied: A horse. He asked, 'A horse with wings?' I replied: Have
you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? Allaah's Messenger (pbuh)
laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth."5 This hadeeth is very
clear that the meaning of playthings (lu'ab) mentioned in the earlier
narration does not refer to humans.
5 Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh
Sunan Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123.
C. http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html
On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet
(sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was
Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the
curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi
wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to
play. He said: "What is this O Aa'ishah?" She replied 'my daughters (Arabs
used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings
made out of a piece of cloth. He said: "What is this?" She replied: 'A
horse' He said: "and what are those on the horses?" She replied: 'Two wings'
He said: "A horse with two wings?!" Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed
until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in
Al-Ishrah]
Not only is the chain of narrators authentic according to Albani - but two
other Islamic sources say 'authentic or authenticated.'
2. The version from the themuslimwoman.com site says that, "the narrator of
the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook or Khaibar". That
is, not in doubt about the hadith.
3. alternative translations do not carry the word 'doubt'
http://www.islamicdawah.mobilixnet.dk/islam/Women/obligation_of_man.htm
Also on the authority of Aisha who said: "The Prophet (saw) returned from
the battle of Tabuk, or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over her room.
The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing part of the room in which
the Prophet (saw) saw some dolls with which Aisha used to play. He said,
"What is this, O Aisha?" She said: "My daughters." (Arabs used to call dolls
for "daughters") He saw among them a horse with two wings made of pieces of
cloth. He said "And what is this in the middle?" She said, "A horse." He
said, "and what are those on the horse?" She said: "Two wings." He said, "A
horse with two wings?!" Aisha said: "The Prophet (saw) laughed until I could
see his molar teeth" (Abu Daawood, an-Nasaa'ee).
http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html
On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet
(sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was
Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the
curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi
wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to
play. He said: "What is this O Aa'ishah?" She replied 'my daughters (Arabs
used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings
made out of a piece of cloth. He said: "What is this?" She replied: 'A
horse' He said: "and what are those on the horses?" She replied: 'Two wings'
He said: "A horse with two wings?!" Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed
until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in
Al-Ishrah]
4. Authoritative Islamic scholars still use this hadith in their judgment of
Islamic laws and customs
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05a.htm
Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer
and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah) had this to
"Regarding the hadeeth of Aaishah that she played with dolls in the presence
of the Prophet (pbuh), and, in some versions of the hadeeth, that one of the
dolls was in the shape of a winged horse, and that when the Prophet (pbuh)
asked her about it, she replied, 'Didn't you hear that [Prophet] Sulayman
had a horse with wings?' to which the Prophet (pbuh) responded by laughing;
this hadeeth indicates the permissibility of children's figurative toys,
owning them and using them, whether they are clearly representative or not,
and whether skillfully or crudely fashioned. There is no basis in the
hadeeth for making a distinction. Those who say that Aaishah's dolls were
not distinctly representative have made an arbitrary judgement not based on
any evidence. What do they say about a winged horse?"
How can Islamists claim that the Imam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of
tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah uses a
hadith that is not sahih to pronounce on the permissibility of
doll-playing
among Saudi Arabian children? For by doing so, even Shaykh Abdul Azeez
al-Qaari' of Saudi Arabia seems to accept that this hadith is sahih.
If using a weak hadith a scholar has to warn the reader about its weakness.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=105213
"Generally, in Islamic law, only the authentic (sahih) and good (hasan)
hadiths are used in deriving the rules. The weak (da`if) hadiths have no
value for the purpose of Shari`ah. However, the scholars of hadith sometimes
differ among themselves in the determination of whether some Hadiths are
weak or not. The scholars have sometimes used weak hadiths for moral and
spiritual (fada'il) matters. It is important that when one uses a weak
hadith for any reason, one should explain it to the people that this is weak
hadith and that it is being used for this particular reason."
It is clear from the article that Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of
Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic
University of Madeenah) didn't say anything about Abu Dawud 4914 being
weak - thus it cannot be weak.
Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan
Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123
CONCLUSION
In Part 1, I prove that in Islam, doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent
according to the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar and Islamic laws and
customs.
In Part 2, I prove that using Ibn Hajar's doll-playing exegesis, Aisha can
be proven to be still pre-pubescent when she married and had sex with
Muhammad.
In Part 3, I prove that Aisha was still pre-pubescent as late as 6-7 years
after her marriage to Muhammad.
Section 2: Proof that Muhammad was a pedophile according to DSM-IV-TR
Even according to the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia,
DSM-IV-TR, Muhammad would be defined as a pedophile. Note that there are
other generally accepted definitions of pedophilia that do not confine the
definition to pre-pubertal children or require fantasies, sexual urges or
behaviors over a certain period of time. However, for the sake of this
discussion I will confine my argument to DSM-IV-TR.
Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing
fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a
prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or
fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the
child or children in Criterion A.
Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an
ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.
Does Muhammad meet all these criteria?
1. Yes - Muhammad had sexual relations with a pre-pubescent girl for a
prolonged period - likely to be at least 6-7 years.
2. Yes - Muhammad had acted on his sexual urges - as demonstrated by Tabari
IX:131 and various Bukhari hadiths (stating consummation at age nine when it
has been established that Aisha didn't reach puberty until she was at least
14 years old).
3. Yes - Muhammad was 57 years old when Aisha was only 9 years old when they
first had sex.
Therefore, even according to the strict clinical definition of DSM-IV-TR it
can be proven that Muhammad was a pedophile.

[Paminifarm]

Hello, Silly Silly,

I was ten when i had my period, and lived in the cold, windy
North in Pennsylvania. No doubt had i lived in the hot lands,
and in sunlight of a sexy, panting man, i would have come into
heat a lot sooner. Health, diet, size and environment determines
when the "heat" begins, not the backward minds of the stupid fools.
We are more civilized now than they were back in those days,
and prefer a woman go to school and be educated to be farmed out
for corruption, perversion and the enrichment of Corporate Society.
We prefer a woman leave her home, her children, her husband and
her skills all behind to become an instrument of the Devil . . .
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/benjamin.htm
MustRead! http://WWW.PAMINIFARM.COM
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6.
Sweet Christian Warrior, May Our God's Spilt Blood
(Via The Vessel, Jesus) Be Your Shield.
"Intifada" is Arabic word for "SHAKE-OFF"
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Post by plain spoken folk
so I guess we can agree that both sets of imaginary friends and their
followers are sick mother fuckers (literally) and deserve each other and
their dance of death. very illuminating! thanks.

Post by Dana

Post by Dana
Yes the moslem male thinks that it is ok to beat females.

http://middleeastinfo.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=3511#pid38841
PROOF THAT MUHAMMAD WAS A PEDOPHILE
Section 1: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had
sex with her
Islamists like to claim that Aisha had reached puberty by the time Muhammad
married and had sex with her. However, they never provide verifiable proof
that Aisha actually was pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with
her, but commonly claim traditions or cultural practices as proof. This is,
of course, false as demonstrated by the hadiths and the commentary of one of
Islam's most famous hadith scholars, Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani,
Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, and author of the
celebrated commentary on Sahih Bukhari, Fateh al-Bari.
To prove Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with her,
one has to understand Ibn Hajar's explanation of the permissibility of
doll-playing for pre-pubescent girls. Then applying this doll-playing
exegesis to hadiths of Aisha getting married or when she first had sex with
Muhammad, one can then demonstrate that she was pre-pubescent on these
occasions.
Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent
This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn
Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, said
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle
used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them
to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is
forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little
girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: "The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty"?
Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other
translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm
On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the
presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played
along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he
entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play
with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)
[The translator then provides some discussion about translations of various
versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and
Fath-al-Bari]
Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130,
Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used
as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys
for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been
especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images
(suwar).
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49844&dgn=4
But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates
that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that 'Aa'ishah
(may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "I used to play with dolls in the
presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I
had female friends who would play with me." al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440.
Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images
of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception
from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was
stated by 'Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale
of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of
their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for
young girls to play with toys.
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm
Aaishah said, "I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet
(pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's
Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to
play with me."
In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree,
Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: "This hadeeth is used as
evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and
animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has
been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making
images. 'Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was
the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they
permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their
youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children."
Note the great similarity in the commentaries of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari
all four versions of the hadith. The words are different because of the
different translators but the essential message is unchanged - only little
girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.
How do we know that little girls are pre-pubescent? Because Islamic customs
and laws specifically state so.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_21.html
Girls reach puberty and adulthood when they experience the above three
signs. However, they have a fourth sign, that is, menstruation (hayd).
Whenever a girl experiences it, she is a woman even if she is 12 years old.
http://www.alinaam.org.za/social/myaaisha.htm
http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=151
Islam And the Age of Puberty
Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained
puberty.
These Islamic websites provide the evidence that in Islam, when a girl
reaches puberty, she ceases to be a girl and becomes a woman. Therefore,
little girls must be pre-pubescent according to Islamic customs and laws.
We also have commentaries by hadith scholars that reinforce this point.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm
Al-Qaadee 'Iyaad has stated this position with definiteness, and transmitted
it as the position of the Majority (Jumhoor) of the Scholars; and that they
declared permissible the selling of toys/dolls (al-lu'ab) for little girls,
to train them from childhood for the household responsibilities and
child-rearing.
Al-Khattaabee said: . it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat)
is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the
threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission
in this was given to Aisha (RA) is because she had not, at that time,
reached the age of puberty.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
. Abu 'Ubaid, who said: We don't see there being any reason for that
(permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys
are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were owned by
adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh).
Part 2: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with
her on her wedding day
Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing
between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face
with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped
so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a
bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women
got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house
when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on
behalf of me."
This hadith suggests that Muhammad had sex with Aisha in her house on her
wedding day. However, was this event really on her wedding day? This is
proven by the Sahih Bukhari hadith below. Note the similarity in accounts,
although the Bukhari 5:234 hadith is more expansive on the fact that the
events took place on Aisha's wedding day.
Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We
went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I
got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother,
Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl
friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do
to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.
I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some
water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house.
There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and
Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they
prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in
the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a
girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the
Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"
Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3311
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years
old, and (s)he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her
dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old.
Note that Sahih Muslim says that Aisha still had her dolls with her when she
was taken to Muhammad's house as a bride. Applying Ibn Hajar's doll-playing
exegesis from Part 1, it becomes clear that Aisha was pre-pubescent when she
became a bride.
Therefore, it is abundantly clear from the hadiths that Aisha was
pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with her on her wedding day.
Part 3: Proof from Sunan Abu Dawud
This proof is slightly controversial because not every Muslim accepts the
hadiths of Sunan Abu Dawud to be sahih (authentic). However, Sunan Abu Dawud
is still the third most respected collection of hadiths, and the relevant
Abu Dawud hadith used here is considered sahih (authentic) by some of the
most authoritative hadith scholars, including Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari'
(Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at
the Islamic University of Madeenah).
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116: "Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me
when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years.").
"He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."
Here we see that Muhammad has sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old. Is
this age confirmed by other hadiths? Yes.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236.
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed
there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of
six years of age, and he consumed (sic - consummated) that marriage when she
was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated
his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for
nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated
his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed
that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)."
what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six
years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old
and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4915 and Number 4915
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six.
When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm
Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and
decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine.
She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Islamists will insist that the term 'consummate the marriage' means 'nikah',
not sex. This is despite the Abu Dawud hadith Vol. 2, #2116 translation that
explicits states 'intercourse'. Be that as it may, does 'consummate the
marriage' mean sex? Here is proof that it does.
http://www.exmuslim.com/com/evidence.htm
There has been some confusion about the definition of the word "consummate".
In Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, #64, the root word used is "dakhala". From the
Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273, it means "to enter, to pierce, to
penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman".
But how do we know that at the age of nine Aisha was still pre-pubescent?
Here is the evidence from Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914 (This hadith is
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
Possession of Dolls By Little Girls
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar
(the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook
or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small
room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and
uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My
dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of
cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the
dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings.
He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't
you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then
he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee
as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee
is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani
(ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]
Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-'Adheem Aabaadee, in his Sharh
(explanation) of Sunan Abu Daawood, says: This hadith and the one before it
(Hadith #20) is used as an evidence of permissibility of possession of dolls
and toys for the purpose of little girls playing with them. This
(permission) is a special exception from the general prohibition of
possession of images (suwar). This position has been stated with certainty
by al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and he has quoted it as the opinion of the Jumhoor
(Majority of Scholars). He also said that the Jumhoor has allowed the sale
of toys (dolls) for little girls, in order to train and prepare them from
childhood for their household affairs and the raising of their children.
According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight
years before Hijrah. The battle of Khaibar took place in Muharram-Safar 7
AH. The siege of Tabuk took place in Rajab 9 AH. Therefore, to be generous,
I accept the Khaibar explanation and not the later, Tabuk explanation.
It is generally accepted that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of
6 in the year 3 BH. This is confirmed by reports that the marriage was
consummated in Shawwal, which came seven months after the Prophet's hijra
from Makkah to al-Medinah.
So the Abu Dawood hadith says that Aisha was still playing with dolls at
least as late as 7 AH. That is 6-7 years after her marriage. Using the
doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar, Abu Ubaid, al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and Shaykh
Muhammad Shams al-Haqq, Aisha did not reach puberty until at least 6-7 years
after her marriage when she would have been about 15-16 years old, but lets
say 14 years old to be generous.
Note that some Islamists will try to say that this hadith is not sahih. They
will use this translation of the same hadith and point out the phrase (the
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the
narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung
in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.
He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse
with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She
replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two
wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard
that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah
(peace be upon him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.
[Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914]
The evidence that this hadith is sahih, and that the phrase (the narrator is
doubtful) does not mean that the hadith is doubtful but that the narrator
1. Various versions of the hadith include confirmation that it is
sahih/authenticated/authentic, including one that refers to Sahih Abu Dawud
A. http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar
(the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook
or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small
room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and
uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My
dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of
cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the
dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings.
He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't
you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then
he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee
as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee
is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani
(ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]
B. http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm
Aboo Daawood and an-Nasaa'ee collected this hadeeth in another chain from
Aaishah in which she said, "When Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) arrived after the
expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar, the wind raised an end of a curtain which
hung in front of my closet, revealing some dolls which belonged to me. He
asked me, 'What is this?' I replied: My dolls. He saw among them a horse
made of wrapped cloth with wings, and asked, 'What is this I am seeing among
them?' I replied: A horse. He asked, 'A horse with wings?' I replied: Have
you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? Allaah's Messenger (pbuh)
laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth."5 This hadeeth is very
clear that the meaning of playthings (lu'ab) mentioned in the earlier
narration does not refer to humans.
5 Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh
Sunan Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123.
C. http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html
On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet
(sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was
Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the
curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi
wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to
play. He said: "What is this O Aa'ishah?" She replied 'my daughters (Arabs
used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings
made out of a piece of cloth. He said: "What is this?" She replied: 'A
horse' He said: "and what are those on the horses?" She replied: 'Two wings'
He said: "A horse with two wings?!" Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed
until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in
Al-Ishrah]
Not only is the chain of narrators authentic according to Albani - but two
other Islamic sources say 'authentic or authenticated.'
2. The version from the themuslimwoman.com site says that, "the narrator of
the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook or Khaibar". That
is, not in doubt about the hadith.
3. alternative translations do not carry the word 'doubt'
http://www.islamicdawah.mobilixnet.dk/islam/Women/obligation_of_man.htm
Also on the authority of Aisha who said: "The Prophet (saw) returned from
the battle of Tabuk, or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over her room.
The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing part of the room in which
the Prophet (saw) saw some dolls with which Aisha used to play. He said,
"What is this, O Aisha?" She said: "My daughters." (Arabs used to call dolls
for "daughters") He saw among them a horse with two wings made of pieces of
cloth. He said "And what is this in the middle?" She said, "A horse." He
said, "and what are those on the horse?" She said: "Two wings." He said, "A
horse with two wings?!" Aisha said: "The Prophet (saw) laughed until I could
see his molar teeth" (Abu Daawood, an-Nasaa'ee).
http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html
On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet
(sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was
Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the
curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi
wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to
play. He said: "What is this O Aa'ishah?" She replied 'my daughters (Arabs
used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings
made out of a piece of cloth. He said: "What is this?" She replied: 'A
horse' He said: "and what are those on the horses?" She replied: 'Two wings'
He said: "A horse with two wings?!" Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed
until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in
Al-Ishrah]
4. Authoritative Islamic scholars still use this hadith in their judgment of
Islamic laws and customs
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05a.htm
Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer
and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah) had this to
"Regarding the hadeeth of Aaishah that she played with dolls in the presence
of the Prophet (pbuh), and, in some versions of the hadeeth, that one of the
dolls was in the shape of a winged horse, and that when the Prophet (pbuh)
asked her about it, she replied, 'Didn't you hear that [Prophet] Sulayman
had a horse with wings?' to which the Prophet (pbuh) responded by laughing;
this hadeeth indicates the permissibility of children's figurative toys,
owning them and using them, whether they are clearly representative or not,
and whether skillfully or crudely fashioned. There is no basis in the
hadeeth for making a distinction. Those who say that Aaishah's dolls were
not distinctly representative have made an arbitrary judgement not based on
any evidence. What do they say about a winged horse?"
How can Islamists claim that the Imam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of
tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah uses a
hadith that is not sahih to pronounce on the permissibility of doll-playing
among Saudi Arabian children? For by doing so, even Shaykh Abdul Azeez
al-Qaari' of Saudi Arabia seems to accept that this hadith is sahih.
If using a weak hadith a scholar has to warn the reader about its weakness.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=105213
"Generally, in Islamic law, only the authentic (sahih) and good (hasan)
hadiths are used in deriving the rules. The weak (da`if) hadiths have no
value for the purpose of Shari`ah. However, the scholars of hadith sometimes
differ among themselves in the determination of whether some Hadiths are
weak or not. The scholars have sometimes used weak hadiths for moral and
spiritual (fada'il) matters. It is important that when one uses a weak
hadith for any reason, one should explain it to the people that this is weak
hadith and that it is being used for this particular reason."
It is clear from the article that Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of
Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic
University of Madeenah) didn't say anything about Abu Dawud 4914 being
weak - thus it cannot be weak.
Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan
Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123
CONCLUSION
In Part 1, I prove that in Islam, doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent
according to the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar and Islamic laws and
customs.
In Part 2, I prove that using Ibn Hajar's doll-playing exegesis, Aisha can
be proven to be still pre-pubescent when she married and had sex with
Muhammad.
In Part 3, I prove that Aisha was still pre-pubescent as late as 6-7 years
after her marriage to Muhammad.
Section 2: Proof that Muhammad was a pedophile according to DSM-IV-TR
Even according to the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia,
DSM-IV-TR, Muhammad would be defined as a pedophile. Note that there are
other generally accepted definitions of pedophilia that do not confine the
definition to pre-pubertal children or require fantasies, sexual urges or
behaviors over a certain period of time. However, for the sake of this
discussion I will confine my argument to DSM-IV-TR.
Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing
fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a
prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or
fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the
child or children in Criterion A.
Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an
ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.
Does Muhammad meet all these criteria?
1. Yes - Muhammad had sexual relations with a pre-pubescent girl for a
prolonged period - likely to be at least 6-7 years.
2. Yes - Muhammad had acted on his sexual urges - as demonstrated by Tabari
IX:131 and various Bukhari hadiths (stating consummation at age nine when it
has been established that Aisha didn't reach puberty until she was at least
14 years old).
3. Yes - Muhammad was 57 years old when Aisha was only 9 years old when they
first had sex.
Therefore, even according to the strict clinical definition of DSM-IV-TR it
can be proven that Muhammad was a pedophile.

[Dana]

Post by Paminifarm
Hello, Silly Silly,
I was ten when i had my period

We did not ask about this. Nor do we care.
But hey your moslem male friends say you are only worth 1/2 as a man.

Post by Paminifarm
We are more civilized now than they were back in those days,
and prefer a woman go to school and be educated

Moslem males that believe in militant Islam do not allow the females to go
to school.

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Post by plain spoken folk
so I guess we can agree that both sets of imaginary friends and their
followers are sick mother fuckers (literally) and deserve each other and
their dance of death. very illuminating! thanks.

Post by Dana

Post by Dana
Yes the moslem male thinks that it is ok to beat females.

http://middleeastinfo.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=3511#pid38841

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PROOF THAT MUHAMMAD WAS A PEDOPHILE
Section 1: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married

and

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had
sex with her
Islamists like to claim that Aisha had reached puberty by the time Muhammad
married and had sex with her. However, they never provide verifiable proof
that Aisha actually was pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with
her, but commonly claim traditions or cultural practices as proof.

This

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is,
of course, false as demonstrated by the hadiths and the commentary of

one

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of
Islam's most famous hadith scholars, Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani,
Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, and author of the
celebrated commentary on Sahih Bukhari, Fateh al-Bari.
To prove Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex

with

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her,
one has to understand Ibn Hajar's explanation of the permissibility of
doll-playing for pre-pubescent girls. Then applying this doll-playing
exegesis to hadiths of Aisha getting married or when she first had sex with
Muhammad, one can then demonstrate that she was pre-pubescent on these
occasions.
Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent
This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn
Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of

Egypt,

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said
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle
used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them
to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar

images

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is
forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little
girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: "The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty"?
Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other
translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm
On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the
presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played
along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he
entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play
with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)
[The translator then provides some discussion about translations of various
versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and
Fath-al-Bari]
Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130,
Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used
as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys
for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been
especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images
(suwar).
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49844&dgn=4
But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates
that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that 'Aa'ishah
(may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "I used to play with dolls in the
presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I
had female friends who would play with me." al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440.
Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images
of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception
from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was
stated by 'Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted

the

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sale
of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of
their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for
young girls to play with toys.
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm
Aaishah said, "I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet
(pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's
Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called

them

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to
play with me."
In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree,
Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: "This hadeeth is used as
evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and
animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has
been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making
images. 'Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was
the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they
permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their
youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children."
Note the great similarity in the commentaries of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari
all four versions of the hadith. The words are different because of the
different translators but the essential message is unchanged - only little
girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.
How do we know that little girls are pre-pubescent? Because Islamic customs
and laws specifically state so.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_21.html

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Girls reach puberty and adulthood when they experience the above three
signs. However, they have a fourth sign, that is, menstruation (hayd).
Whenever a girl experiences it, she is a woman even if she is 12 years old.
http://www.alinaam.org.za/social/myaaisha.htm

http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=151

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Islam And the Age of Puberty
Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained
puberty.
These Islamic websites provide the evidence that in Islam, when a girl
reaches puberty, she ceases to be a girl and becomes a woman. Therefore,
little girls must be pre-pubescent according to Islamic customs and laws.
We also have commentaries by hadith scholars that reinforce this point.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/GirlsPlayingDolls.htm
Al-Qaadee 'Iyaad has stated this position with definiteness, and transmitted
it as the position of the Majority (Jumhoor) of the Scholars; and that they
declared permissible the selling of toys/dolls (al-lu'ab) for little girls,
to train them from childhood for the household responsibilities and
child-rearing.
Al-Khattaabee said: . it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat)
is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the
threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission
in this was given to Aisha (RA) is because she had not, at that time,
reached the age of puberty.
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
. Abu 'Ubaid, who said: We don't see there being any reason for that
(permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys
are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were

owned

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by
adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh).
Part 2: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with
her on her wedding day
Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing
between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face
with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped
so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was

sitting on

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a
bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women
got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house
when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on
behalf of me."
This hadith suggests that Muhammad had sex with Aisha in her house on her
wedding day. However, was this event really on her wedding day? This is
proven by the Sahih Bukhari hadith below. Note the similarity in accounts,
although the Bukhari 5:234 hadith is more expansive on the fact that the
events took place on Aisha's wedding day.
Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six

(years).

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We
went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj.

Then

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I
got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother,
Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl
friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted

to

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do
to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.
I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some
water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house.
There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and
Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they
prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in
the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a
girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the
Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"
Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3311
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years
old, and (s)he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine,

and

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her
dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old.
Note that Sahih Muslim says that Aisha still had her dolls with her

when

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she
was taken to Muhammad's house as a bride. Applying Ibn Hajar's doll-playing
exegesis from Part 1, it becomes clear that Aisha was pre-pubescent

when

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she
became a bride.
Therefore, it is abundantly clear from the hadiths that Aisha was
pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with her on her wedding day.
Part 3: Proof from Sunan Abu Dawud
This proof is slightly controversial because not every Muslim accepts the
hadiths of Sunan Abu Dawud to be sahih (authentic). However, Sunan Abu Dawud
is still the third most respected collection of hadiths, and the relevant
Abu Dawud hadith used here is considered sahih (authentic) by some of the
most authoritative hadith scholars, including Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari'
(Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at
the Islamic University of Madeenah).
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116: "Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah

married

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me
when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years.").
"He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."
Here we see that Muhammad has sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old. Is
this age confirmed by other hadiths? Yes.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236.
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed
there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a

girl

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of
six years of age, and he consumed (sic - consummated) that marriage

when

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she
was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated
his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with

him

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for
nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated
his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed
that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)."
what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six
years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine

years

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old
and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4915 and Number 4915
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven

or

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six.
When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm
Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and
decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine.
She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Islamists will insist that the term 'consummate the marriage' means 'nikah',
not sex. This is despite the Abu Dawud hadith Vol. 2, #2116

translation

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that
explicits states 'intercourse'. Be that as it may, does 'consummate the
marriage' mean sex? Here is proof that it does.
http://www.exmuslim.com/com/evidence.htm
There has been some confusion about the definition of the word "consummate".
In Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, #64, the root word used is "dakhala". From the
Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273, it means "to enter, to

pierce,

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to
penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman".
But how do we know that at the age of nine Aisha was still

pre-pubescent?

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Here is the evidence from Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914 (This hadith is
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
Possession of Dolls By Little Girls
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar
(the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook
or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small
room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and
uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She
My
dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of
cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the
dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings.
He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't
you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then
he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee
as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee
is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani
(ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]
Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-'Adheem Aabaadee, in his Sharh
(explanation) of Sunan Abu Daawood, says: This hadith and the one

before

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it
(Hadith #20) is used as an evidence of permissibility of possession of dolls
and toys for the purpose of little girls playing with them. This
(permission) is a special exception from the general prohibition of
possession of images (suwar). This position has been stated with certainty
by al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and he has quoted it as the opinion of the Jumhoor
(Majority of Scholars). He also said that the Jumhoor has allowed the sale
of toys (dolls) for little girls, in order to train and prepare them from
childhood for their household affairs and the raising of their children.
According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight
years before Hijrah. The battle of Khaibar took place in

Muharram-Safar 7

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AH. The siege of Tabuk took place in Rajab 9 AH. Therefore, to be generous,
I accept the Khaibar explanation and not the later, Tabuk explanation.
It is generally accepted that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the

age

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of
6 in the year 3 BH. This is confirmed by reports that the marriage was
consummated in Shawwal, which came seven months after the Prophet's hijra
from Makkah to al-Medinah.
So the Abu Dawood hadith says that Aisha was still playing with dolls at
least as late as 7 AH. That is 6-7 years after her marriage. Using the
doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar, Abu Ubaid, al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and Shaykh
Muhammad Shams al-Haqq, Aisha did not reach puberty until at least 6-7 years
after her marriage when she would have been about 15-16 years old, but lets
say 14 years old to be generous.
Note that some Islamists will try to say that this hadith is not

sahih.

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They
will use this translation of the same hadith and point out the phrase (the
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the
narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which

was

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hung
in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.
He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse
with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She
replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She
Two
wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard
that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah
(peace be upon him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.
[Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914]
The evidence that this hadith is sahih, and that the phrase (the

narrator

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is
doubtful) does not mean that the hadith is doubtful but that the narrator
1. Various versions of the hadith include confirmation that it is
sahih/authenticated/authentic, including one that refers to Sahih Abu Dawud
A. http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/PossessionofDolls.htm
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar
(the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook
or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small
room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and
uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She
My
dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of
cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the
dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings.
He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't
you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then
he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee
as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee
is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani
(ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]
B. http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm
Aboo Daawood and an-Nasaa'ee collected this hadeeth in another chain from
Aaishah in which she said, "When Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) arrived

after

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the
expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar, the wind raised an end of a curtain which
hung in front of my closet, revealing some dolls which belonged to me. He
asked me, 'What is this?' I replied: My dolls. He saw among them a horse
made of wrapped cloth with wings, and asked, 'What is this I am seeing among
them?' I replied: A horse. He asked, 'A horse with wings?' I replied: Have
you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? Allaah's Messenger (pbuh)
laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth."5 This hadeeth

is

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very
clear that the meaning of playthings (lu'ab) mentioned in the earlier
narration does not refer to humans.
5 Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh
Sunan Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123.
C. http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html
On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet
(sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was
Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the
curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi
wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to
play. He said: "What is this O Aa'ishah?" She replied 'my daughters (Arabs
used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings
made out of a piece of cloth. He said: "What is this?" She replied: 'A
horse' He said: "and what are those on the horses?" She replied: 'Two wings'
He said: "A horse with two wings?!" Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed
until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in
Al-Ishrah]
Not only is the chain of narrators authentic according to Albani - but two
other Islamic sources say 'authentic or authenticated.'
2. The version from the themuslimwoman.com site says that, "the

narrator

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of
the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook or Khaibar". That
is, not in doubt about the hadith.
3. alternative translations do not carry the word 'doubt'

http://www.islamicdawah.mobilixnet.dk/islam/Women/obligation_of_man.htm

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Also on the authority of Aisha who said: "The Prophet (saw) returned from
the battle of Tabuk, or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over her room.
The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing part of the room in which
the Prophet (saw) saw some dolls with which Aisha used to play. He said,
"What is this, O Aisha?" She said: "My daughters." (Arabs used to call dolls
for "daughters") He saw among them a horse with two wings made of

pieces

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of
cloth. He said "And what is this in the middle?" She said, "A horse." He
said, "and what are those on the horse?" She said: "Two wings." He

said,

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"A
horse with two wings?!" Aisha said: "The Prophet (saw) laughed until I could
see his molar teeth" (Abu Daawood, an-Nasaa'ee).
http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html
On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet
(sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was
Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the
curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi
wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to
play. He said: "What is this O Aa'ishah?" She replied 'my daughters (Arabs
used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings
made out of a piece of cloth. He said: "What is this?" She replied: 'A
horse' He said: "and what are those on the horses?" She replied: 'Two wings'
He said: "A horse with two wings?!" Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed
until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in
Al-Ishrah]
4. Authoritative Islamic scholars still use this hadith in their

judgment

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of
Islamic laws and customs
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05a.htm
Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer
and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah) had this to
"Regarding the hadeeth of Aaishah that she played with dolls in the presence
of the Prophet (pbuh), and, in some versions of the hadeeth, that one

of

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the
dolls was in the shape of a winged horse, and that when the Prophet (pbuh)
asked her about it, she replied, 'Didn't you hear that [Prophet] Sulayman
had a horse with wings?' to which the Prophet (pbuh) responded by laughing;
this hadeeth indicates the permissibility of children's figurative toys,
owning them and using them, whether they are clearly representative or not,
and whether skillfully or crudely fashioned. There is no basis in the
hadeeth for making a distinction. Those who say that Aaishah's dolls were
not distinctly representative have made an arbitrary judgement not

based

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on
any evidence. What do they say about a winged horse?"
How can Islamists claim that the Imam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of
tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah

uses

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a
hadith that is not sahih to pronounce on the permissibility of doll-playing
among Saudi Arabian children? For by doing so, even Shaykh Abdul Azeez
al-Qaari' of Saudi Arabia seems to accept that this hadith is sahih.
If using a weak hadith a scholar has to warn the reader about its weakness.

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=105213

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"Generally, in Islamic law, only the authentic (sahih) and good (hasan)
hadiths are used in deriving the rules. The weak (da`if) hadiths have no
value for the purpose of Shari`ah. However, the scholars of hadith sometimes
differ among themselves in the determination of whether some Hadiths are
weak or not. The scholars have sometimes used weak hadiths for moral and
spiritual (fada'il) matters. It is important that when one uses a weak
hadith for any reason, one should explain it to the people that this

is

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weak
hadith and that it is being used for this particular reason."
It is clear from the article that Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of
Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic
University of Madeenah) didn't say anything about Abu Dawud 4914 being
weak - thus it cannot be weak.
Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan
Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123
CONCLUSION
In Part 1, I prove that in Islam, doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent
according to the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar and Islamic laws and
customs.
In Part 2, I prove that using Ibn Hajar's doll-playing exegesis, Aisha can
be proven to be still pre-pubescent when she married and had sex with
Muhammad.
In Part 3, I prove that Aisha was still pre-pubescent as late as 6-7 years
after her marriage to Muhammad.
Section 2: Proof that Muhammad was a pedophile according to DSM-IV-TR
Even according to the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia,
DSM-IV-TR, Muhammad would be defined as a pedophile. Note that there are
other generally accepted definitions of pedophilia that do not confine the
definition to pre-pubertal children or require fantasies, sexual urges or
behaviors over a certain period of time. However, for the sake of this
discussion I will confine my argument to DSM-IV-TR.
Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing
fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a
prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or
fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the
child or children in Criterion A.
Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an
ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.
Does Muhammad meet all these criteria?
1. Yes - Muhammad had sexual relations with a pre-pubescent girl for a
prolonged period - likely to be at least 6-7 years.
2. Yes - Muhammad had acted on his sexual urges - as demonstrated by Tabari
IX:131 and various Bukhari hadiths (stating consummation at age nine

when

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it
has been established that Aisha didn't reach puberty until she was at least
14 years old).
3. Yes - Muhammad was 57 years old when Aisha was only 9 years old

when

Post by Paminifarm

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Post by Dana
they
first had sex.
Therefore, even according to the strict clinical definition of

DSM-IV-TR

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Post by Dana
it
can be proven that Muhammad was a pedophile.

[Paminifarm]

Post by Dana

Post by Paminifarm
Hello, Silly Silly,
I was ten when i had my period

We did not ask about this. Nor do we care.

Lian sack o' sheet, you are the one that brouhgt up the age
a woman gets her period . . .

Post by Dana
But hey your moslem male friends say you are only worth 1/2 as a man.

Exactly! That is their religious belief, and real women love it.
It is sexually stimulating for them in a savage sort of way -
please remember: they arenot Christian. Your beliefs are Christian.

Post by Dana

Post by Paminifarm
We are more civilized now than they were back in those days,
and prefer a woman go to school and be educated

Moslem males that believe in militant Islam do not allow the females to go
to school.

Big deal. "School" is in the eyes of the beholder.
Now you are saying because the Amish donot send their whelps to
perverted, Public School, they arenot getting an education. - SICK!
Our Constitution promises us we may raise our children in our faith.
If our faith wants Home Schooling; so be it, and that is the law.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/benjamin.htm
MustRead! http://WWW.PAMINIFARM.COM
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6.
Sweet Christian Warrior, May Our God's Spilt Blood
(Via The Vessel, Jesus) Be Your Shield.
"Intifada" is Arabic word for "SHAKE-OFF"
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Post by Dana

Post by Paminifarm

Post by plain spoken folk
so I guess we can agree that both sets of imaginary friends and their
followers are sick mother fuckers (literally) and deserve each other and
their dance of death. very illuminating! thanks.

<snip>

[Harry]

Post by Paminifarm

Post by Dana

Post by Paminifarm
Hello, Silly Silly,
I was ten when i had my period

We did not ask about this. Nor do we care.

Lian sack o' sheet, you are the one that brouhgt up the age
a woman gets her period . . .

Post by Dana
But hey your moslem male friends say you are only worth 1/2 as a man.

Exactly! That is their religious belief, and real women love it.
It is sexually stimulating for them in a savage sort of way -
please remember: they arenot Christian. Your beliefs are Christian.

and you are a fucking moron.

Islamic women enjoy being blamed for their own rape, and subsequently
stoned?????That must be some sexual stimulation for them.
Islamic women enjoy having their genitals mutilated???????
Islamic women enjoy being repressed and being lower than animals????

ffs.....you are too fucking stupid to live
We are *all* stupider for reading the mindless crap that you post

Post by Paminifarm

Post by Dana

Post by Paminifarm
We are more civilized now than they were back in those days,
and prefer a woman go to school and be educated

Moslem males that believe in militant Islam do not allow the females to go
to school.

Big deal. "School" is in the eyes of the beholder.
Now you are saying because the Amish donot send their whelps to
perverted, Public School, they arenot getting an education. - SICK!
Our Constitution promises us we may raise our children in our faith.
If our faith wants Home Schooling; so be it, and that is the law.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/benjamin.htm
MustRead! http://WWW.PAMINIFARM.COM
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6.
Sweet Christian Warrior, May Our God's Spilt Blood
(Via The Vessel, Jesus) Be Your Shield.
"Intifada" is Arabic word for "SHAKE-OFF"
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Post by Dana

Post by Paminifarm

Post by plain spoken folk
so I guess we can agree that both sets of imaginary friends and their
followers are sick mother fuckers (literally) and deserve each other and
their dance of death. very illuminating! thanks.

<snip>

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[Dana]

Post by Paminifarm

Post by Dana

Post by Paminifarm
Hello, Silly Silly,
I was ten when i had my period

We did not ask about this. Nor do we care.

Lian sack o' sheet, you are the one that brouhgt up the age
a woman gets her period . . .

No, I bought up the fact that Muhammad married her when she was 6 years old,
and 3 years latter he consumated that marriage.

Post by Paminifarm

Post by Dana
But hey your moslem male friends say you are only worth 1/2 as a man.

Exactly! That is their religious belief,

That is not a religious belief. That is a political or social belief made up
to subject a segment of the population. No different than the
American Constitution with it's 3/5 clause as describing slaves.
We corrected that mistake and by law have amended our Constitution that all
people regardless of race, or sex are equal.
That is a fundamental principle, that all people regardless of anything are
equal.

Post by Paminifarm
and real women love it.

That may be your opinion.
But why would you not consider yourself equal to everyone else?
Do you not have two arms and legs, a torso, a head, and a brain?
Is your spilled Blood red, like everyone else?
Why would you think your opinion is not worth the same consideration as
anyone else?
I will not say you cannot have your opinion on this, but you want to make
your opinion apply to every female and that is not fair.
If you want to be subserviant to a male, well go marry a dominering male who
will keep you in your place.

Post by Paminifarm
It is sexually stimulating for them in a savage sort of way -
please remember: they arenot Christian. Your beliefs are
Christian.

As for my beliefs, yes I was raised as a Roman Catholic up in Brooklyn. I am
not a church going Catholic, nor do I agree with all the political positions
of the Vatican. Being raised Catholic does place me in the Christian side,
I myself do not consider myself to be Christian, as I do not agree with all
that is written in the Bible as being the word of God, or the words of
Jesus.
The bible is a work of man, and has been interpreted so many times it's
original meaning has probably been lost. I am not saying all of the Bible is
wrong or bad, but there are some parts of the bible where obvious bias can
be found.
I believe in God and Jesus, but still do not consider myself a Christian. I
just consider myself as having a religious faith.
As an example of what Christian creeds I do not believe in, the best one is
about turning the other cheek.
Sorry but if some one hits me, I hit back.
As for my beliefs about rights and the nature of man, I believe in the
"Natural Law" political philosophy. Go read up on "Natural Law", you can
start with anything from John Locke. I can give more links if you are
interested.

Post by Paminifarm

Post by Dana

Post by Paminifarm
We are more civilized now than they were back in those days,
and prefer a woman go to school and be educated

Moslem males that believe in militant Islam do not allow the females to go
to school.

Big deal. "School" is in the eyes of the beholder.

Big deal.
Education is the key to self determination and individual freedom.

Post by Paminifarm
Now you are saying because the Amish donot send their whelps to
perverted, Public School, they arenot getting an education. -

No, they home school, so they are still educated. Many even go on to
college.

[Paminifarm]

<snip>

Post by Dana
Education is the key to self determination and individual freedom.
<snip>

Hello,
You cannot be an island if you are a real woman:
"The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world".
How you rule the world so goes it.
So how are your motherly instincts doing lately????
Have you any?
Love is the answer . . .
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/benjamin.htm
MustRead! http://WWW.PAMINIFARM.COM
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6.
Sweet Christian Warrior, May Our God's Spilt Blood
(Via The Vessel, Jesus) Be Your Shield.
"Intifada" is Arabic word for "SHAKE-OFF"
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

[UncleStoner]

Post by Paminifarm
I was ten when i had my period, and lived in the cold, windy
North in Pennsylvania. No doubt had i lived in the hot lands,
... i would have come into heat a lot sooner.

It is a myth that hot climates lead to earlier menarche.

Post by Paminifarm
Health, diet, size and environment determines
when the "heat" begins,

Quite true. The better the health and diet the earlier the menarche.
Life was relatively unhealthy and stressful back in Aisha's time, so
most girls had later menarches.

[elmer swanson]

Post by Dana
Yes the moslem male thinks that it is ok to beat females.
http://www.wpibriefing.com/120%20Azar%20Majed%20letter%20to%20Nobel%20Peace%20Committee.htm

TRUE CASES OF
CHRISTIAN RITUALISED CHILD ABUSE
1978: Priest John Lenihan 44, admitted molesting a girl victim repetitively
from ages 13 until 15.
1978: Christian Brother working at Mount Cashel orphanage convicted of
repeated sexual assaults on two 8 year old boys. Eight other Brothers were
also tried in the same scandal.

<rest of child abuse stories snipped>

With all due respect to the abusive comments Muslims are subjected to
on this news group, the CHRISTIAN RITUALISED CHILD ABUSE posted below
(presumably as a counterattack to Christian anti-Muslim posts) is ...
not very credible.

CHRISTIAN RITUALISED CHILD ABUSE is actually a counterattack not be a
Muslim responding to Christians, but by a Mushrik, (a pagan)
counterattacking Christian claims that there's widespread SATANIC
RITUALISED CHILD ABUSE.

So why do I say it's not very credible?
Here's the link:
http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/christianpedofile.html
Here's the homepage: http://www.davidicke.com/

And here's another idea david icke is peddling:

from: http://www.bridgeoflove.com/

See for yourself ....

****** *** *** QUOTE ON **** ***** **** **** ***** *****
THE REPTILIAN AGENDA
NEW THREE TAPE SET - NTSC FORMAT


Stunning confirmation of David Icke's book,
The Biggest Secret.

DAVID ICKE HAS PRODUCED TWO AMAZING VIDEOS WITH THE ZULU "SANUSI" OR
SHAMAN, CREDO MUTWA, WHO REVEALS ASTONISHING INFORMATION WHICH, UNTIL
NOW, WAS ONLY AVAILABLE TO THE HIGHEST INITIATES OF THE AFRICAN SHAMAN
TRADITION.

HE HAS HAD ATTEMPTS ON HIS LIFE AND ENDLESS THREATS IN AN EFFORT TO
SILENCE HIM RIGHT UP TO THE RECORDING, BUT, AS CREDO SAYS, "THE WORLD
MUST KNOW THIS - AND KNOW IT NOW."

HE REVEALS HOW A SHAPESHIFTING REPTILIAN RACE (THE "CHITAURI" TO
AFRICANS) HAS CONTROLLED HUMANITY FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND HOW THEIR
BLOODLINES ARE IN THE POSITIONS OF ROYAL, POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC POWER
TODAY.

CREDO MUTWA SUPPORTS ALL THE THEMES OUTLINED IN THE BIGGEST SECRET AND
ADDS HIS OWN UNIQUE KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE OF TRAVELLING AFRICA FOR
NEARLY 80 YEARS.

THESE VIDEOS WILL RE-WRITE THE UFO/ EXTRATERRESTRIAL STORY IN A WAY
THAT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND. UFO RESEARCHERS HAVE IGNORED AFRICA AND
THEREFORE IGNORED ONE OF THE GREATEST SOURCES OF KNOWLEDGE ON THE
PLANET.

WHILE PEOPLE STILL ARGUE OVER ROSWELL AND THE EXTRATERRESTRIAL BEINGS
APPARENTLY FOUND THERE, AFRICAN TRIBES PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INTERACTING
WITH THESE ET "GODS" FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, SOMETIMES EATING THEM, AS
CREDO MUTWA DID ON ONE OCCASION WITH UNFORGETTABLE CONSEQUENCES.

CREDO HAS NOT ONLY SEEN DEAD "GREYS" MANY TIMES, HE HAS SEEN THEM
EXAMINED BEHIND THEIR "GREY" EXTERIOR AND HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT THEY
REALLY LOOK LIKE - AND IT IS NOTHING LIKE WE THINK!

"THIS IS THE MOST AMAZING MAN IT HAS EVER BEEN MY HONOUR TO MEET - A
GENIUS - AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE VIDEOS IS SIMPLY BEYOND WORDS" -
DAVID ICKE.

After making these videos, Credo was visited by two people from Cape
Town who offered him 50,000 rand and a house anywhere in South Africa
he would like to name if he would agree to never speak to David Icke
again and never have anything to do with him. Credo's reply can be
imagined!


Published by Bridge of Love Publications
Copyright (c) Bridge of Love/David Icke
***** **** **** ******* **** ***** QUOTE OFF *** *** **** **** *****
******

Sure there are Christians molesting children. There are a lot of
Christian homes for, and services for needy children. Not all
Christians are good.
Don't confuse the European and North American love of uncovering and
publicizing shameful scandals (and shameful wrongdoers) with decadence
and immorality.

[elmer swanson]

Post by elmer swanson

Post by Dana
Yes the moslem male thinks that it is ok to beat females.
http://www.wpibriefing.com/120%20Azar%20Majed%20letter%20to%20Nobel%20Peace%20Committee.htm

(reposted with corrections)

Post by elmer swanson

TRUE CASES OF
CHRISTIAN RITUALISED CHILD ABUSE
1978: Priest John Lenihan 44, admitted molesting a girl victim repetitively
from ages 13 until 15.
1978: Christian Brother working at Mount Cashel orphanage convicted of
repeated sexual assaults on two 8 year old boys. Eight other Brothers were
also tried in the same scandal.

<rest of child abuse stories snipped>

With all due respect to the abusive comments Muslims are subjected to
on this news group, the "CHRISTIAN RITUALISED CHILD ABUSE" posted
below (presumably by a Muslims as a counterattack to Christian
anti-Muslim posts) is ...
not very credible.

The "CHRISTIAN RITUALISED CHILD ABUSE" list comes from
http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/christianpedofile.html

and is actually a counterattack, not by a Muslim responding to
Christians, but by a Mushrik, (a pagan) attacking Christians who claim
there's widespread SATANIC RITUALISED CHILD ABUSE by pagans.

So why do I say it's not very credible? See for yourself ...
Here's the link:
http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/christianpedofile.html
Here's the homepage: http://www.davidicke.com/

from which you can find another idea david icke is peddling:

from: http://www.bridgeoflove.com/


****** *** *** QUOTE ON **** ***** **** **** ***** *****
THE REPTILIAN AGENDA
NEW THREE TAPE SET - NTSC FORMAT


Stunning confirmation of David Icke's book,
The Biggest Secret.

DAVID ICKE HAS PRODUCED TWO AMAZING VIDEOS WITH THE ZULU "SANUSI" OR
SHAMAN, CREDO MUTWA, WHO REVEALS ASTONISHING INFORMATION WHICH, UNTIL
NOW, WAS ONLY AVAILABLE TO THE HIGHEST INITIATES OF THE AFRICAN
SHAMAN
TRADITION.

HE HAS HAD ATTEMPTS ON HIS LIFE AND ENDLESS THREATS IN AN EFFORT TO
SILENCE HIM RIGHT UP TO THE RECORDING, BUT, AS CREDO SAYS, "THE WORLD
MUST KNOW THIS - AND KNOW IT NOW."

HE REVEALS HOW A SHAPESHIFTING REPTILIAN RACE (THE "CHITAURI" TO
AFRICANS) HAS CONTROLLED HUMANITY FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND HOW
THEIR
BLOODLINES ARE IN THE POSITIONS OF ROYAL, POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC
POWER
TODAY.

CREDO MUTWA SUPPORTS ALL THE THEMES OUTLINED IN THE BIGGEST SECRET
AND
ADDS HIS OWN UNIQUE KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE OF TRAVELLING AFRICA FOR
NEARLY 80 YEARS.

THESE VIDEOS WILL RE-WRITE THE UFO/ EXTRATERRESTRIAL STORY IN A WAY
THAT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND. UFO RESEARCHERS HAVE IGNORED AFRICA AND
THEREFORE IGNORED ONE OF THE GREATEST SOURCES OF KNOWLEDGE ON THE
PLANET.

WHILE PEOPLE STILL ARGUE OVER ROSWELL AND THE EXTRATERRESTRIAL BEINGS
APPARENTLY FOUND THERE, AFRICAN TRIBES PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INTERACTING
WITH THESE ET "GODS" FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, SOMETIMES EATING THEM,
AS
CREDO MUTWA DID ON ONE OCCASION WITH UNFORGETTABLE CONSEQUENCES.

CREDO HAS NOT ONLY SEEN DEAD "GREYS" MANY TIMES, HE HAS SEEN THEM
EXAMINED BEHIND THEIR "GREY" EXTERIOR AND HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT THEY
REALLY LOOK LIKE - AND IT IS NOTHING LIKE WE THINK!

"THIS IS THE MOST AMAZING MAN IT HAS EVER BEEN MY HONOUR TO MEET - A
GENIUS - AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE VIDEOS IS SIMPLY BEYOND WORDS" -
DAVID ICKE.

After making these videos, Credo was visited by two people from Cape
Town who offered him 50,000 rand and a house anywhere in South Africa
he would like to name if he would agree to never speak to David Icke
again and never have anything to do with him. Credo's reply can be
imagined!


Published by Bridge of Love Publications
Copyright (c) Bridge of Love/David Icke
***** **** **** ******* **** ***** QUOTE OFF *** *** **** **** *****

Post by elmer swanson
Sure there are Christians molesting children. There are a lot of
Christian homes for, and services for needy children. Not all
Christians are good.
Don't confuse the European and North American love of uncovering and
publicizing shameful scandals (and shameful wrongdoers) with decadence
and immorality.